Interview Transcript from Illawarra Stories Wollongong City Libraries Oral History Project – Kirli Saunders
Interviewer: Leland Kean
Interview date: 20 October 2020
Leland Kean: Hello, my name is Leland Kean and I’m the artistic development manager here at Merrigong Theatre Company. Our company’s name, Merrigong, reflects the Dharawal word for the Illawarra region’s distinct escarpment. A landmark of supreme cultural importance. This name serves as a constant reminder that our venues rest upon unceded First Nations land. In all that we do, Merrigong Theatre Company seeks to acknowledge the traditional custodians of this land and to show respect to all First Nations people who call our region home. Welcome to MerrigongX Conversations. Today I’ll be chatting to Kirli Saunders, writer, artist, and poet. G’day Kirli.
Kirli Saunders: Hello.
Leland Kean: How are you Kirli?
Kirli Saunders: Oh, I’m so good. Yeah, thank you for having me.
Leland Kean: No worries, we’re sitting in the wonderful IMB theatre here at IPAC, at Merrigong, and this is the first of a series of conversations that we’re going to have. Kirli and I are in the process of working on a series of works for Merrigong and in development that we have which we’ll talk about a little bit later, but just, I guess is an introduction to you, Kirli. Tell us a bit about your background.
Kirli Saunders: Yeah, um, I guess before I start now, I acknowledge [Kirli acknowledges Country in Gundungurra Language]…So I acknowledged then ancestors of this land and also paid respect to my own elders and gave thanks for the dreaming that they’ve provided me, which has strengthened me. Yeah, I’m a proud First Nations woman my family have south coast ties and I was raised on Gundungurra land. In my family there’s a strong history of dispossession and removal. So we’ve been taken off country and raised in children’s homes and missions and things like that. So that’s meant that, um, I haven’t been raised with the strongest connection to landscape or country or culture and community as a child. Um, and I’ve started that kind of language learning journey later in my life. But it’s something I’m really passionate about and I suppose outside of language, um, and yeah, my First Nations cultural identity, I’m really interested in play writing, poetry, picture books. I, I find myself writing really regularly. I love painting, so I’m exploring art making at the moment and I have a few shows later in the year. And, um, yeah, I love to move, I love yoga, love walking my dog on the beach, um, and surfing, kind of things that mostly take up my time.
Leland Kean: So from a writing perspective Kirli, you, you came into writing and in, in a way, so you were a teacher, that was the pathway that you kind of came.
Kirli Saunders: Yeah
Leland Kean: came to words.
Kirli Saunders: I started writing when I was nineteen. I was at University studying primary teaching at, at UOW, our local Uni, and I was reading all these beautiful children’s picture books and I had a few teachers who had, you know, shown me picture books and poetry while I was in high school and I was really drawn to the literary realm, but I didn’t feel always held by a kind of a structural, um, space of writing. And so I started writing mostly as a means to self-express, and it was without any kind of specific structure, and I suppose back then it was poetry. And when I was twenty-two, I wrote my first picture book about riding a motorbike, and it was called ‘The Incredible Freedom Machines’. I took it to an illustrator, Matt Ottley, who’s one of Australia’s best and said, you know, “Will, you illustrate my work?” [laughter] a stranger who I’ve never met. And thankfully he said yes, and he took me up to his editor at Scholastic, Beck Young, and since it’s been published in, yeah, five countries and has, has won a few awards and accolades and things like that. And, um, my first poetry collection, ‘Kindred’ came out last year. So, yeah, from, from there, poetry and picture books have been the guts of my work as a writer, and I’ve got, yeah, about six kind of on the shelves are on the way, and playwriting is an extension of that I suppose poetry taking new form in prose and theatre on stage.
Leland Kean: Going back to that 19-year-old, um, and discovering kind of poetry for the first time, what, what was the catalyst? What, what sort of drew you to that form as a form of expression? Did you, did you have an experience where things that you’d read or as an experience of some life poetry?
Kirli Saunders: My, ah, the first poetry I remember reading and thinking, Oh, I really love the word play in that or, um, those poetic techniques really drew me in was, um, Wilfred Owen’s war poetry. And so we were also probably studying Lawson, Paterson, you know this, this kind of bush poetry, at the same time, these ballads which is, you know, dead white guys had nothing to do with me [laughter], but I really loved the, the word play and the imagery and the way that, um, when they, when they were read aloud how they sounded. And I think that was my entry into poetry. But the picture books that I loved were by Shaun Tan, as an example, and I’m not sure if you know Shaun’s work, but there, you know, kind of sparse in the way that they, the words, are minimal for the most part, and, um, they are poetic. So yeah, I guess poetry’s allure has been that it’s not structured in the same way that prose is, that it’s fairly free flowing, lyrical, um, and imagery is constantly moving through the text and welcoming the reader into that world. So, yeah, I wanted to be a part of that.
Leland Kean: And how was that nurtured through you? So, um, obviously, I’ve seen you read your poetry live and with, um, organisations like ‘Enough Said’, and, and different sort of spoken word organisations, was that something that came about what, what led you to go, I guess, from putting it on the page to stepping it up onto the stage?
Kirli Saunders: Yeah, um, so I was working with, I started working with Red Room Poetry that are a small not- for-profit who aim to make poetry a meaningful part of everyday life, ah, in 2017. And about the same time I, I moved to Wollongong, and I was watching all of these incredible, um, artists perform at places like ‘Enough Said’, a local incredible poetry gig, and, um, yeah, I wanted to step into that world. And I think I was nurtured by poets like Dr Cameron Bennett who is the artistic director at, at Red Room Poetry and, and Lorin Read or Lorin Elizabeth who, um, was heading up ‘Enough Said’ for a long time. But, ah, the professional development that’s come from working in an arts organisation and going to arts gigs has meant that I’ve met a lot of other really wonderful creative spoken word poets who said, “Hey, get up on stage.” You know, Emma Rose who was behind ‘Word in Hand’ for a long time, Candy Royalle before. Bless, Candy, um, who has since passed. And yeah, I guess being around arts organisations in the artists’ world was enough to kind of give me the guts to get up there, and, um, and since you know, when you, when you publish a workout in the world, a lot of festival opportunities come out that welcome you to come and read. So, it’s been a steep learning curve for me, but one that I’m, I’m really enjoying seeing page poetry become stage poetry and taking that performance vein and playwriting is an extension of that.
Leland Kean: So, I want to talk about a little bit of connection to language and obviously your work with Red Room is really important, but I’m just kinda gonna jump back, talk to me about motorbikes.
Kirli Saunders: Oh, motorbikes, [laughter] Oh! um, yeah…
Leland Kean: What kind of bike do you have? Do you have a bike at the moment?
Kirli Saunders: I do. I’m on a, a Triumph Thruxton 900, um, it’s…
Leland Kean: That’s a big bike.
Kirli Saunders: [laughter] the 2013 model, so it’s the last of the air cooled. Um, and, yeah, I, I started riding motorbikes as a kid. My Dad always had British bikes, you know, BSAs and Norton’s and, and things like that. And so I started off on a Ducati as my first road bike. Before that it was always, yeah posties you know, little Hondas.
Leland Kean But you just stepped up onto a Ducati just as you first bike.
Kirli Saunders: Yeah. [laughter] I mean it was quite legal. But yeah, when, when I sat with Dad and said, “Dad, I want to ride a motorbike.” His question was, “Well, why? If you can give me a good reason we can go pick a bike together.” Um, and I said I wanted an independent way of travelling and seeing the world. And so we went and picked a motorbike and, um, and yes, it’s been that way ever since. I’ve always had a bike and he sat me down and said, you know, “Bikes are a big investment, not financially, but emotionally and spiritually. When you buy a bike, it’s not for you to be able to sell in two years or when you have kids or when you need to buy a house. This is something that’s with you for your whole life.” And, um, yeah, that’s something I’ve always really honoured and it’s total joy for me now. Dad, Dad still owns a bike, he’s on an Enfield, and, um, to be able to ride with my Dad is really special.
Leland Kean: And you get out and ride often?
Kirli Saunders: Yeah, well, as often as we can. I mean, it’s pretty chilly at the moment [laughter].
Leland Kean: And I guess they just, ‘cos I know a little bit of the background in how the bike kind of manifests itself into your first children’s book and what that kind of journey was.
Kirli Saunders: Yeah. So at the time I was experiencing, um, I’d been diagnosed with severe anxiety and depression, and I think in hindsight a lot of that had to do with maybe being a young twenty-something, um, but also moving through ‘what is identity?’ And at the, round those realms I was beginning to kind of open up more into my First Nations identity and was feeling a lot of anxiety about not fitting in in the world which, I hadn’t, you know, it’s super common for, for a young adult. But yeah, I, riding for me was this kind of freedom that allowed me to forget all of that for a while and just be totally engrossed, sensorily and physically in the landscape that I was in. You know, when the wind’s hitting your face and, um, you’ve got that smell of the salt in the air from riding along the ocean road, or you have to be really mindful of the way that you’re cornering because the roads are wet because you’re going through rainforest and mountains, then you become really engrossed in your space and that kind of presence is a really special and transformative experience in taking you away from your woes. Um, and, you know, there are a lot of times where my Dad sat me down and was like, “I know you’re trying to escape things, but don’t escape too far, stay safe.” Um, and so I guess for anybody who’s listening, if, um, if you’re experiencing those things, you know there’s some really great organisations out there, like Lifeline who can help you, um, and please do reach out and be around the people around you. But I really encourage you to, to circle back to that item of bliss in your life. And for me that is my freedom machine. It’s my motorbike, it’s my surfboard, um, it’s staying connected with people who are connected to those things in my life. And the writing of ‘The Freedom Machines’ came from the riding of my freedom machine. And, um, I love talking to children about that kind of transformational experience of having a connection with something that transforms you.
Leland Kean: Yeah, I think at the moment, you know, with everything that’s going on in the world, those spaces are so important to us. You know that, that place of, of peace or that place that we come back to that’s special, really special for us. Red Room.
Kirli Saunders: Yeah.
Leland Kean: So your journey with Red Room, um, you know, and particularly, obviously you’ve worked, ah, all through the Illawarra and all over the State and the country in terms of, um, bringing, ah, language to school students, to young people, how’s that been as a journey?
Kirli Saunders: Yeah, it’s, um, it’s been the steepest learning curve in project management I’ve ever had. Um, when I started at Red Room, I was a fully qualified teacher and I was teaching their Eco poetry project, so supporting students to connect to the Earth. And while I was down at Bundanon Trust as their residency with Red Room, I was sitting on the Shoalhaven River, and I could hear the sounds of these ancestors speaking. And it was terrifying to me ‘cos that was my first sort of real audible experience of hearing them in a big way and they were speaking in language. And I called my Aunty Trish and said, “Aunty, I’ve just heard these voices by the river and it’s all in language. And she said, “Well Bub what did they say?” I said, “I don’t know because I can’t understand them.” And she said, “Well, that’s what they’re saying. It’s time for you to learn language.” And so since I’ve spent time on Gundungurra country back home where I was born, um, yarning with my Aunty, Aunty Velma Mulcahy, who heads up the Yamanda Centre as an elder and has worked in language regeneration for quite a while. And also Aunty Trish Levett whose been really pivotal in teaching me language. And Auntie Sharon Hall who holds language and cultural knowledge. And so the three of those aunties have been, yeah, supporting me to learn language and supporting me to teach children language and I’ve been enlisting the help of lots of community organisations, Councils and, yeah, the Department of Planning Industry & Environment and other Arts orgs to get behind leading cultural workshops on country with community where we provide paid employment pathways for Elders and Custodians to support children to learn language, and be the First Nations students who, for 95% of them involved have as per [Bailey & Yang’s PIFL study, for Red Room Poetry] have never had a language learning opportunity so, um…
Leland Kean: Wow, that’s amazing, isn’t it?
Kirli Saunders: It’s mind blowing,
Leland Kean: Mind blowing.
Kirli Saunders: Yeah. Um, but for the most part it’s meant, you know, anecdotally, the, yeah, there’s lots of, there’s studies about this by UTS and BYG, but anecdotally, um, the outcome has been watching children stand taller and be more confident and proud, and connecting with community and speaking our languages and bringing them back to life. And, well, I wouldn’t say back to life, I’d say awake from sleeping. And, um, yeah, it’s been, it’s been such a special experience for me to be involved. Yeah, we’ve worked in the Northern Territory, ACT and New South Wales with this language project and, um, published poems by commissioned writers who also had the opportunity to go and sit with Elders and learn language and in fifteen different languages. So, yeah, it’s, it’s meant that I’ve got to yarn with really powerful writers as well, people like Dr Jeanine Leane and Declan Furber Gillick is big in the play world. Um, Ellen van Neerven, yeah, Melanie Mununggurr-Williams. So it’s meant that I’ve had deep yarns with these different creatives as well on their own personal language learning journey, and for most of us, we haven’t had the opportunity to learn language sooner. So it’s, it’s been big sort of transformative spaces, lots of moving through intergenerational traumas, seeing the impact of colonisation, and trying to undo some of those damages and soften it for ourselves and for community who follow from, from us here.
Leland Kean: That’s amazing work and, you know, we’ve certainly seen the impact in the work that you’ve done here with Merrigong and in the Illawarra. Um, I think the first time we met, ah, we began, you began the meeting in the pub and, and often, you know, you will recite some of the kids poems that, you know, when we had Uncle Archie and stuff down, there was some really beautiful, beautiful stuff that’s come out of that. And seeing the progression of those children, then take that and that is incredible thing.
Kirli Saunders: Absolutely.
Leland Kean: You’re coming now to, to a new phase into a new space, um, you’ve just, ah, recently been the recipient of Playwriting Australia Award Ignition Award commissioned to write a new work, um, tell us a little bit about that. Tell us a little bit where that journey and where we’re headed on that.
Kirli Saunders: I think, um, you know if you had of told nineteen year old me that one day you’ll be a full time writer and that will be your work, um, I wouldn’t have believed you because that dream is so big to me and, um, yeah, I feel, I’m so moved by the possibility of, of being funded by Ausco in a, um, you know, a capacity to write on a project called ‘Returning’ which is an arts exhibition and publication outcome and then also by Playwriting Australia to write a play in the coming year. Um, to be able to be a full-time writer is just such, Oh, there’s, there’s no words for it. You know, I’m, yeah, I’m moved to be able to do that. I think, you know, when you called me last week to say, “By the way, Kirli, did you know that you received…”, I just cried, I was just a mess on the phone. Yeah, and, you know, sitting down this morning and fleshing out a play that we’ve been working on already, and, um, beginning to put down the groundwork to set up poetry in first languages so it will continue without me with some really incredibly talented First Nations writers. Yeah, Ethan Bell, who’s a proud Wallabalooa fella and a beautiful Yuin woman who’s an art curator, Lyndsay Urquhart, means that I have confidence with who will take over the project and, um, that the First Nations poetry in first languages will continue without me. Yeah, it’s, it’s a mixed emotions. It’s the sadness of leaving behind a project, an arts project, that you’ve really worked on for a long time, but also the joy of being able to embrace something that you’ve always wanted to be and to have the freedom and support to do that. So, yeah, I’m trying not to cry on a podcast. [Laughter]
Leland Kean: I think it’s huge, but if, if you could, if you could look back and if you could have a conversation with nineteen-year-old Kirli…
Kirli Saunders: Yeah.
Leland Kean: …you know, what, what is that conversation now, with the knowledge that you have?
Kirli Saunders: I think it’s to trust the process. Um, and I say that to all young writers, all young hopeful artists who have been told more than once that there’s no money in the thing that you want to pursue, and “Go and get a real job”. And, you know, I went and got the real job, and the real job gave me so many skills and, um, so many learning experiences and opportunities which have led me to where I am now. And I wish earlier that I’d have trusted that, hey, within, within a decade – that’s a small amount of time really I think – your dream will be, will be realised for you. Trust that that will happen. And, um, yeah, you know I, I feel so lucky that all of the opportunities that I’ve had in the last few years have arrived to me in the way that I have. My unorthodox journey into publishing has meant that I’ve been published by many different amazing publishers, you know, Scholastic and Hardie Grant and, um, yeah, Magabala books. And I know that without Red Room, all of these wonderful publishers, all of the residencies that I’ve had with Bundanon and the partnership that I’ve had with Merrigong, I wouldn’t be the writer I am today. So, yeah, I’d, I’d say for the young ones out there who are studying that creative journey, trust it. Trust that the path that you’re on is the right one. Welcome the opportunities that arrive to you and, um, continue to be generous when you’re in a position to provide support to other people. You know, poetry in first languages, for me has meant that I’ve been able to provide first commission opportunities to lots of First Nations artists, and because of those opportunities they’re now having their works published in more and more places or are being welcomed into stages of the parliament, you know, prizes and, and all kinds of things. And, um, I said to Matt when I first wrote the Freedom Machines, you know “Matt, why me?” Of all the people who he told me get a publication maybe once a fortnight – instead of all the people who were sending manuscripts, why me. And he said, “Oh, Kirls, it’s, it’s the best one that I’ve received in a while like and I love it.” But also what I’m showing you means that you’ll be able to show somebody else.” So, yeah, there’s a cyclical nature to receiving opportunity, so trust the process. Embrace the opportunities. Be generous.
Leland Kean: It’s wonderful. I think, um, we’re going to keep coming back and chatting with Kirli over this whole process as we move through, and we move through into the development of her new work. Um, but I think that that is a lovely note to leave today’s podcast on, Kirli. Thanks so much.
Kirli Saunders: Ah, thank you so much. Yeah, and, um, it’s been a pleasure and they’re [Kirli speaking in Gundungurra Language] walking and working with you. And [Kirli speaking in Gundungurra Language] Thank you, will be on soon.
Leland Kean: We will. Thanks Kirli. MerrigongX Conversations is a podcast as part of the MerrigongX Reboot program. Look out for more episodes coming up in the coming weeks. [Music playing]