Interview Transcript from Illawarra Stories Wollongong City Libraries Oral History Project – Henry (Sonny) Simms – Part 2
Interviewer: Stuart Traynor
Interview date: 28 November 2021
Stuart Traynor: So were you working at same time when you were playing the footy?
Henry Simms: When I went down, they got me a job at, ah, Narooma on the Eurobodalla Shire Council.
Stuart Traynor: Yep, doing what sort of work?
Henry Simms: Labouring work, everything, concrete’n, pipe work and but for Bodalla there’s about a mile, but I never had a car and I had to hitchhike every morning. And I said to the [unknown] , “I’m sick of this.” I said, “Well, I’m up,” I said, “I leave in the dark, I come home in the dark.” So old, old Bill Constable he was the secretary, he was the big boss, president and everything rolled into one.
Stuart Traynor: Constable…
Henry Simms Old, a hard old man too. So he went and saw Normie Howes who had the sawmill. And first of all he never had the big ones built then he had a little spot that was in the bush that was hard work, so I went with Normie. So I, I was in the bush we were tailing out. We had a big southern cross motor on the back of a truck – seventeen quid.
Stuart Traynor: So you were earning good money if you’re playing…
Henry Simms: Yeah.
Stuart Traynor: …footy and working as well.
Henry Simms: On top of the world and seventeen quid! For tailing-out. Then he built two big sawmills on Pot-, Potato Point Road, big, two big mills. And me and Frankie Stewart and old John Decare, we was at Number one mill cuttin’ all timber for the Water Board ‘cos they used to have their plumbers down their trenches to hold the sand together. So Frankie was the benchman, I was the tailer-out. My pay went up there from seventeen quid to twenty quid ‘cos in the bigger building, lot, lot quicker work in there, I was on top. But I still, my, my brothers were still there. And if he done no good on the Saturday at the horses, he, on Sunday that’s all, that’s all he said to me. Half time I’d come off, I’d look over he’d be watching, “See ya in the pub.” The pub at Bodalla, is called, um, what’s-a-name, Bodalla Arms Hotel owned by old Bill McConkie, old Irishman. And we used to call this fella Bushell.
Stuart Traynor: Bushell.
Henry Simms: Bushell still.
Stuart Traynor: After the tea.
Henry Simms: Yeah, after the tea. Bushell, he’d sing out to me. “Oy,” that’s all he’d say, “Oy.” I knew what he want, he wanted a drink down the pub. [laughs]
Stuart Traynor: So that was ’63-’64 you did that.
Henry Simms: Worked at Bodalla.
Stuart Traynor: What did you do after that?
Henry Simms: But I, I was a bit of a rogue then because in ’64 there was a team from down Orient Point started.
Stuart Traynor: Right.
Henry Simms: Called Crookhaven and they had a fellow registered in the team called Sandy Drew. He lived out at Browns Flat. Poor old Sandy was a drunk. But they just, they put him on the register to make up the numbers. So when we played home games at Bodalla of a Sunday – it was all Sunday football in Group sixteen, Group Seven Saturday.
Stuart Traynor: Yep.
Henry Simms: We had a car then, so me and my Dad would come up, I’d play football with, ah, Crookhaven under the name of Sandy Drew then head back home here early Sunday morning or Saturday night and I’d play down home. Then there was a fella who come from Orient Point originally but was living down the coast and he come up too and he knew about me playing. And they were playing Milton down here this day at Greenwell Point and he asked, he said, he asked Johnny Morris, he said, ” Hey, give us a run.” He said, “No.” he said, “We’ve got a side.” He said, “You’ve got Simmsy in there!” “There’s no Simms on our side.” He said, “There is,” he said, “he played with me at Bodalla.” He said. “I played reserve grade; he plays first grade.” He said, “No.” He said, “You have a look on the … No Simms,” he said. But he knew, he found out later on I was playing under the name is Sandy Drew.
Stuart Traynor: Sandy Drew.
Henry Simms: So I got back, I went, I went to training one Tuesday night and old Bill pulled me aside. He said, “Henry,” he said, “We gotta go Bega Thursday night front the Judiciary.” I said, “What for? He said, “You’re playing here with us, a registered contracted player, playing up there, playing reserve grade with this team up at Group Seven.” He put me in the fine was either a, a two-match suspension or a twenty quid fine.
Stuart Traynor: So what did you take?
Henry Simms: I took the fine. See, and Howesy he paid that. He said, “Save that bit” He said, “You pay me back.” He said, “You work back a little while in afternoon.” He said, “Clean up around the tracks, clean up around the log yard.” He said, “Cut that out.” Two weeks I cut all that out. Just by cleaning out all the sawdust around the saws and the benches, along the tracks, that cut that out. But this nice fellow well, he put me in.
Stuart Traynor: Now, you mentioned in passing Lynette, your wife.
Henry Simms: Yeah.
Stuart Traynor: Lynette Carpenter. Were you married by, by that time or..?
Henry Simms: No, we were just living together then.
Stuart Traynor: Yep.
Henry Simms: We never got married until we come to Nowra.
Stuart Traynor: Yeah.
Henry Simms: Yeah.
Stuart Traynor: So tell me about Lynette, where was she from?
Henry Simms: She originally come from Orient Point, but she’d go down to, they’d go down there with her Mum and Dad every year ever since they were little kids, picking peas and beans. And she was a champion picker.
Stuart Traynor: And her Dad was David Charles Carpenter
Henry Simms: Old, old ….. yeah.
Stuart Traynor: And Minny.
Henry Simms: Minny.
Stuart Traynor: Minny Timbery.
Henry Simms: Yeah. Yeah, but she, she’d stand ten bags of peas and beans herself in a day.
Stuart Traynor: Lynette would?
Henry Simms: Yeah. She was a champion.
Stuart Traynor: Good worker.
Henry Simms: Good worker, champion picker.
Stuart Traynor: So where did you meet her, how did you meet her?
Henry Simms: At Bodalla.
Stuart Traynor: Yeah.
Henry Simms: Yeah. We had a barbeque and..
Stuart Traynor: So was she from, she was further down the coast?
Henry Simms: No, she was from here, Roseby Park.
Stuart Traynor: Right. Sorry, yep.
Henry Simms: But they used to go down there pickin’ see.
Stuart Traynor: Gotcha.
Henry Simms: Then they had a big barbeque at Bodalla footy ground and the barbie to meet all the players and I got introduced as a player down there.
Stuart Traynor: Yep.
Henry Simms: We got together from there then.
Stuart Traynor: And when did you get married?
Henry Simms: It was the first, first, ah, week in ’65 when we come, we got, we got married.
Stuart Traynor: And where did you live once you were newly married?
Henry Simms: Down the Mission.
Stuart Traynor: You stayed at the..?
Henry Simms: Yep… a little hut, from the Snowy, we lived in one of them.
Stuart Traynor: And you are working in the sawmills then?
Henry Simms: I worked for Isons then in the sawmill in the end. But then I had, I had transferred to the Shoalhaven City Council.
Stuart Traynor: Yep. Doing what sort of work, general labouring?
Henry Simms: General labour work, concreting, foot paths and all that.
Stuart Traynor: So a fair bit of skill involved.
Henry Simms: Yeah, it was. And that’s, I was involved in concreting right after then I’ve always done concreting.
Stuart Traynor: So you stayed, what, till you moved to the Land Council?
Henry Simms: Land Council.
Stuart Traynor: Yeah.
Henry Simms: And I’ve got a really good relationship with Council. And when you look around all these, downtown, these big water towers and reservoirs, I worked on all of them.
Stuart Traynor: Well.
Henry Simms: All barrow work.
Stuart Traynor: Uh-huh.
Henry Simms: All barrow. No, no concrete pumps them days.
Stuart Traynor: Hard work.
Henry Simms: And, and there was, as you come up there used to be a concrete batch plant down here. That wasn’t till later on. When we done the reservoirs, we had a big machine, a big two bag mix. Everything was weighed there was a Clerk of Works there. Everything was done by weight, your sand, your metal. All, all you had was, it was measured and tipped in by hand, a man was on the buckets in, and barrow work. You’d go around the scaffolding you went round on, just on two planks. But I was young, I was fit.
Stuart Traynor: Yeah.
Henry Simms: And you worked with the Council for a number of years.
Henry Simms: 22 years I worked with Council.
Stuart Traynor: And why did you leave the Council, was that to go to the, the job with the Land Council?
Henry Simms: Well it was a better opportunity.
Stuart Traynor: Yeah.
Henry Simms: Better opportunity, plus you could travel.
Stuart Traynor: Yeah.
Henry Simms: A lot of times I, I took Lynette and me eldest daughter away when we had a week-long meeting in Tweed Heads or out the west. I took them and showed them round New South Wales. I used to be a heavy drinker one time. And that cost me my marriage, being a heavy drinker. But I’ve never lost, ah, contact with me kids. I had..
Stuart Traynor: How many kids?
Henry Simms: Seven kids.
Stuart Traynor: That’s a good haul.
Henry Simms: Seven kids and I, even, even when we separated I, I never left them behind. I always paid me maintenance, always paid maintenance. But I paid well above me maintenance. Whatever they needed at school or that, clothing, I bought up above me maintenance, I bought all that. And I still got a good relationship today with me kids. And Lynette, we get on well today.
Stuart Traynor: That’s good, yeah. We touched on the dog tags earlier. We should come back to that. I know in the Northern Territory the dog tag was actually a paper certificate.
Henry Simms: Yeah.
Stuart Traynor: So that’s what it was here as well?
Henry Simms: Yeah, paper, ah, paper and…
Stuart Traynor: You had to carry that with you.
Henry Simms: At all times.
Stuart Traynor: Yeah.
Henry Simms: My first experience with that, when I worked on the Eurobodalla Shire Council it was fortnightly pay and there was only one Commonwealth Bank on the coast and that was in Moruya. So we used to knock off at 3 o’clock at Narooma, 2 o’clock ‘cos the bank closed at 3 then. We knocked off at 2 o’clock to go, to travel to Moruya to cash our cheque. And directly across the road where the old bank used to be is the Adelaide, soon as you go over the Moruya River, it’s that first pub on the left, Adelaide Hotel – still there today. I walked in and there was a lot of Kooris drinking down in the corner. Some of them were millworkers some were shit carters.
Stuart Traynor: Would people demand the exemption?
Henry Simms: You had to show it.
Stuart Traynor: To get, at the bar you had..
Henry Simms: To get served. So, old Mrs McIvor, she was Publican, a little short lady and her brother-in-law, Muddy Tonkin he was picking up the glasses and use the clean out the toilets and do all this cleaning up around. He had a big arm full of glasses, he looked over, he seen me, and he tapped her on the shoulder pointed at me. She come over to me, not with the schooner of beer I ordered, but she said, “I’m sorry Sir,” she said, “I can’t serve you.”
Stuart Traynor: Why was that?
Henry Simms: She said, I said, “Why,” I said, “what’s the problem? She said, “Oh, I’ve been advised that you haven’t got the exemption certificate.” I said, “Mrs McIvor, I said, “I can drink anywhere in Sydney.” I said, “In the pubs or the rugby league clubs,” I said, “no questions asked.” She said, “I’m sorry but all them men in that corner you see there, the dunny carters and the mill workers,” she said, “their all got the exemption certificate. It’s unfair if I serve you and can’t serve others who come in.”
Stuart Traynor: So how, how did you, how come you didn’t have an exemption certificate? It wasn’t an automatic thing, you had to apply?
Henry Simms: I, I didn’t even apply. I was like me father. Dad told me…
Stuart Traynor: You refused to buck to the system.
Henry Simms: Yeah. Dad said, “If you’re clean and tidy and you behave, you’ll get served anywhere.” And he proved that in Sydney, he could tell you about that.
Stuart Traynor: So on principle you weren’t prepared to get the dog tags.
Henry Simms: He, he can tell you who the publican was in that pub and what beer was on tap. And I, I didn’t want to, I, followed my father. So the law was they had to call the police. So she called the police. I waited there and along come hold Burt Farnsworth. He only died a couple years back in Moruya. And he said, “Sonny,” he said, “I’ve got to escort you from the pub.” I said, “I understand that.” I got outside the pub, and I was humiliated because they’re all watching me, everybody, not only the shit carters and the mill workers.
Stuart Traynor: So this is the early ’60s this is happening is it?
Henry Simms: Yeah.
Stuart Traynor: Which is very late, yeah.
Henry Simms: We stepped outside the pub, and he pointed up the road. Fifty yards away is the Monarch Hotel. He said, “Go there.” He said, “One of my colleagues owns that pub,” he said, “you’ll be right in there.”
Stuart Traynor: So you never ever got an exemption certificate?
Henry Simms: Never ever got an exemption certificate. I, I, I can drink at Bodalla along with all the others, drink till you couldn’t stand up. 10 o’clock come, old Mr McConkie used to pull the brown blind down till Carpenter the copper come, and he’d say, “Righto.” There was a man there called Vin Dixon. He had an old grey Vanguard taxi. he done the picture run. And he’d come in the pub, and he’d say, “Okay, your four, you four blokes, Nerrigundah, you’re the next taxi”. He made sure everybody got home and if you had a car when you come in from Nerringundah, the old gold mining, “Leave the keys there, put them behind the bar.” Then he said, “When Win comes back,” he said, “you Sonny, Bushell and Wingy” – this fella had one arm used to work in the mill.
Stuart Traynor: Uh-huh.
Henry Simms: “Wingy,” he said. Teddy Stewart. He said, “You, Wingy,” he said, “next taxi.” And, geez, when it come back we were in that. But,
Stuart Traynor: Sorry mate.
Henry Simms: Drink till you couldn’t stand up. And just imagine all the ones who are picking peas and beans who ?? didn’t have these, they still drunk in that Bodalla pub.
Stuart Traynor: See in the Northern Territory where I spent 40 years of my life before I retired to Wollongong, people started rebelling against the dog tag system in the early ’50s. But in New South Wales this is going a lot longer than that.
Henry Simms: Oh, yeah. And like when I tell the kids about it, when I give talks to the schools and that and I tell them about the rations and mutton flaps and that about the dog tag and they say, “What’s that?” I said, “Well it was a piece of paper. And to get that when those Mission managers had their monthly meeting in Sydney for you to obtain that you had to be of good character. And they can take that off you, at, in a whim, Bang! gone.” Yeah, dog tag. But I, like my Dad, I, I defied that. And I got served everywhere, never ever got knocked back other than the Adelaide Hotel. I drunk in the pub at Tathra, Cobargo, Bega, the three pubs in Bega, Eden Fisherman’s Club, never worried me.
Stuart Traynor: What about restrictions on voting in elections?
Henry Simms: We were, after ’67 we was right.
Stuart Traynor: Yep, but prior to that?
Henry Simms: No. We were more less banned from, we weren’t, we weren’t a voice. Well up till ’67 we were nothing.
Stuart Traynor: Because I think in 1964, um, Aboriginal people in the Northern Territory were allowed to vote in Commonwealth elections.
Henry Simms: Yeah.
Stuart Traynor: But NSW and some other states were later.
Henry Simms: Only, only the ones on the Mission, the Mission manager, they pushed, ah, enrolment. That was at the end, and it was all over on all the Mission – Aboriginals, 18, you voted. And old Newton Lawson who was the last manager on there, he come and asked me, he asked me, he didn’t say, he asked did I want to become enrolled to vote. I said, “Yeah.”
Stuart Traynor: What do you remember of the ’67 referendum, where you actively involved in that in any way, or do you remember what was going on?
Henry Simms: Yeah, I knew it was going on. I was really strong; I was all for that. We campaigned.
Stuart Traynor: Thought you might be, that’s why I asked the question.
Henry Simms: We, we had a lot of grief up here.
Stuart Traynor: Really.
Henry Simms: Yeah, as I said this is the third most racist town in New South Wales.
Stuart Traynor: After Wilcannia you mentioned.
Henry Simms: After Brewarrina and Moree.
Stuart Traynor: And Moree, sorry.
Henry Simms: We were the third most racist.
Stuart Traynor: And the, the Freedom Rides of the ’60s, they didn’t come here though, they were all…
Henry Simms: They went northwest out central west, northwest, never come this way. And my brother Vic, he encountered the, we used to call it the colour bar we used to call it.
Stuart Traynor: Yeah.
Henry Simms: Vic’s an entertainer. And he’d go Col Joye and Judy Stone, all over the place and all over Australia, singing, entertainer. When they done the trip to Moree, him Col Joye, Judy Stone, all the other top line singers of the ’60s, they went to the Moree Pool, the thermal pool. And he was diving in until they recognised him. They come over, “You, out!” And Col Joye went and confronted him, “Why, what?” “He’s Aboriginal and he’s not allowed in this pool.” They said, “That’s okay. We’re not using your pool either.” So Col Joye said, “You can shove it.” And they walked, they boycotted it. And there was a rally against that. That bloke in the finish he relented. And then they said, “We’re going to take this back to Sydney and highlight this.” And he relented.
Stuart Traynor: You mentioned earlier about the, um, restrictions of where you sat at the picture theatre.
Henry Simms: First nine rows.
Stuart Traynor: What else applied in the Nowra area? Where there any other areas that were off limits or made it awkward for you?
Henry Simms: Yeah, you couldn’t stay around town. You couldn’t wait around town, not with this Bob Blizzard, this detective. He’d come in the pub, and he didn’t give a damn if you was on your first beer or second beer, “You’ve had enough. Out! Go. Don’t let me see you round town.” He’d take you round behind the Red Cross, where the Red Cross is now, he’d fight you round there. He was a dog of a man. He’d either fight around behind the Red Cross or he’d take you down the old sale yard opposite the Ex-Servos Club and he’d fight. That was our, that was our boxing ring. And if you had any, any grievance, that’s where you’d settled it down there.
Stuart Traynor: Now, when did Orient Point become Aboriginal land? Was that in ’83, in the Land Rights Act or was it earlier?
Henry Simms: No, no, that was, that was always Roseby Park. ‘Cos it was named after a Liberal, MLA, ah, John Roseby. It’s called Roseby Park.
Stuart Traynor: So it was always a reserve.
Henry Simms: Always a reserve.
Stuart Traynor: Yep.
Henry Simms: After, after that, ah, MLA man, John, John Roseby.
Stuart Traynor: Yep.
Henry Simms: Yeah. And as I said in ’75 they give it the name to the Housing Corporation. They built new homes there.
Stuart Traynor: So the title became changed, it became…
Henry Simms: Jerrinja.
Stuart Traynor: Yep. In ’75.
Henry Simms: ’75 but only for the housing company, it’s still, it’s still Roseby Park.
Stuart Traynor: Yep.
Henry Simms: Then when the Land Rights Act come into being in ’83 they trans-, transferred title over.
Stuart Traynor: Okay, so it was ’83 that you had this significant.
Henry Simms: ’83.
Stuart Traynor: And the land at Roseby Park was that, um, was any of that carved off or sold off or anything, or was it..?
Henry Simms : Yeah, well it was a big Mission. And Mum on the old Mission that went out to the river on, up to, where Pop had his leases, Council put a road right through, never consulted with anybody. They paid no compensation. Put the road through there. Yeah, no compo, none whatsoever. See, we used to come there as kids because Mum’s Uncles lived on the Mission. And it was great growing up there and we’d be on the old shit cart with old Jim Longbottom with his, with his draught horse going round checking all the shit cans and that. And he’d give us a drive, we was happy doing that with him. And Newton Lawson, he was the best manager I come across, him and old Bill Jones. Like the last manager at Roseby Park, Bill Jones the manager at La Perouse and old Newton Lawson, when he asked me down, there was a, Lynette said, “You gotta go up to see Mr Lawson.” We all had respect for him, old Newton Lawson. I went up and seen him got Uncle Merv from the Council and he said, “Sonny,” he said would you like to live in town?” He said, “Improve your housing,” He said, he said, “Complete,” he said, “complete overhaul, schooling for kids, better work.” And he said, “A house,” he said, “a proper house.” Because this all shack only opened the open out that we were in. And I said, “Yeah.” I should’ve got me paperwork out and showed you this before you come down. We were out, there was two houses allocated from the Aborigines Welfare Board. They bought two houses in town.
Stuart Traynor: They weren’t general Housing Commission places?
Henry Simms: No, no.
Stuart Traynor: They were specially …
Henry Simms: Yeah. So our house was on top of Browns Hill, on, near the water tower. Stuart Traynor Yep. We was allocated that, me, and Lynette. And Brian and Annette Lonesborough, they were only young like us, they were allocated a house in McDonald Avenue. Then we come off. That was to better our lifestyle.
Stuart Traynor: Were you able to buy those houses or they were always rental?
Henry Simms: No, always rental.
Stuart Traynor: Yep.
Henry Simms: No. Then in later years, they, well, what’s-a-name, they got transferred over to the Housing Commission. All them houses that were former Welfare Board owned, they sold all them houses off. They was never ever replaced – never. So we lived up on top of the hill, Browns Hill. But it, it was better, a nice home, it was good. Inside toilet, running water, electricity, oh, it was great. It was good – really improved our lifestyle.
Stuart Traynor: So generally for someone who doesn’t know this aspect of Australian history, when did things really change in terms of, ah, equal rights and equal opportunity for Aboriginal people in this area?
Henry Simms: From ’67 onwards.
Stuart Traynor: That was the key thing.
Henry Simms: That, that was the steppingstone for, for a better lifestyle. Kids had a future. Leading up to that and things had changed immensely from then. And I know specially with me in the workforce and on the Council, specially when I become the, the Council – I was mad, I was keen on unions.
Stuart Traynor: Yep.
Henry Simms: I believed in equality. Not only for me and my mob, everybody.
Stuart Traynor: So what year did you and Lynette acquire this house, can you remember?
Henry Simms: We come in, ah, I’ll tell you the day exact. The day Lionel Rose beat Fighting Harada.
Stuart Traynor: Oh, ’68.
Henry Simms: We travelled in while I was listening to the fight. And there was another bloke living on the Mission with this sheila, he sneaked on the Mission, Gordon Thomas. He helped me move all our stuff here.
Stuart Traynor: Yep.
Henry Simms: And we’re listening to the fight as we’re driving in from Orient Point.
Stuart Traynor: So was that a consequence do you think of the referendum, or would that have happened anyway, you getting decent housing?
Henry Simms: No, no. Referendum that, that paved, and that opened up all avenues.
Stuart Traynor: But also too, you’re, you’re a bloke who’s always been in work, you’ve as well, well, you look at this. You’ve looked after your family financially.
Henry Simms: I was always a con-, I was a constant worker. I, I never shied away from it. Yet my brother Vic was a lazy fella. Because with my father, he was a hard man, a very hard man, but he was a fair man.
Stuart Traynor: And he’s instilled strong values in you.
Henry Simms: Yes, in us.
Stuart Traynor: And your Mum.
Henry Simms: He installed that word respect into us. Look, if ever we got on the tram we didn’t have to be told to be standing up for an elderly person or disabled, we just stood up. And he taught us like, that come from him. And when we sat down at the table for a meal, “Show your hands.” That was taught in the homes, you don’t sit down with dirty hands. And for me, after, after I done my chores and I’d have time I’d play footy up the Mission with the kids and if I got dirt and that on me feet, he’d look down there and he’d just say, “Your feet are a bit thirsty.” I knew I didn’t go to bed with dirty feet. And, but that’s what he instilled into us. And, like I never done, I never had school holidays. He had the, he had the, ah, contract with the Housing Commission round Malabar, Maroubra for the concreting for the footpaths, patios, and all that. I spent all my time with him. And a lot of time I never even had my picture fare. All he bought me was a bottle of – I always remember this lemonade Blue boy lemon-, Blue Bow, Blue Bow, only sold in pubs. That’s all I used to get from my work. Blue Bow lemonade. He’d drink the money. Like, also growing up as a teenager we’d travel all over New South Wales giving boomerang exhibitions and he’d sell everything. But motels weren’t the go then, we’d stay in pubs ‘cos he knew there was a drink there. And we went to Merriwa one year for a big, big festival at Morr-, Merriwa showground. We had to get the publican, or my father had to get the publican to ring back to the manager to send us a pass ‘cos he drunk all the money. So Uncle Bob and all them missed out on their money because Dad drunk it. And we went to numerous places round – Cooma – travelled on the old train overnight down there.
Stuart Traynor: Um, I mean Sonny, you’re clearly a respected elder in your community, um, and you mentioned about going to the schools.
Henry Simms: I give…
Stuart Traynor: What sort of message do you try to give the kids when you go to the schools?
Henry Simms: Well I, ya know, I, I tell them I asked, open session, I ask, get them to ask me a question. “What was it like living on a Missionary reserve under Mission manager? What sort of food did we have? Clothing”. And one little boy when he quizzed me, he said, “Mr Simms did you have track suits and joggers on?” I said, “No. We had shirts and shorts on.” I said, “Not matching,” I said, “but. And barefooted.” I said, “Our school photos reflect all that.” And I tell them what sort of food we ate at home there a lot of time. Lot of the time because me father was an alcoholic, we’d go to bed, we didn’t know from one day to the next if we were going to go to bed with a full belly or an empty belly.
Stuart Traynor: Yep.
Henry Simms: We, Mum, when a certain time had come, Mum said, “You better go and look for your father.”
Stuart Traynor: So he was an alcoholic, but he was a good man at the same time.
Henry Simms: Yeah. Drink, drink.
Stuart Traynor: Had to be, yeah.
Henry Simms: And so we’d go looking for him up to where the tram he used to get off ,we used to call it, at La Perouse we used to call it the Bundy, that’s where we used to get off. We might find him in the tea-tree bushes. He might have eggs in his pocket or, or he always, always had a sugar bag with all the tucker, and he’s I ever met there be eggs squashed and he’d buy Darlinghurst he’d go to buy there stuffed baked rabbits. So he’d have two of them in the sugar bag. They’d be flat, bread, the round loaf, that’d be flat. So we’d find him in the bush, and we didn’t know and next morning and if he didn’t come home with tucker, but he’d have money. There was a little shop along Anzac Parade, Maroubra, that we called the old Speedway, there’s a little general store there, it’s a hairdresser’s shop today. I’d have to go with him early in the morning and he’d buy tucker there and I’d have to take it home on the tram in the, in the sugar bag. And all the teachers going to school would be on that same tram, so they’d seen me going home with tucker in the sugar bag and I done the shame of it, you know. And I wouldn’t get off at the Bundy, I’d go down to the next stop.
Stuart Traynor: Um, tell, tell me who are the names that come to mind as the important figures in the community? You know, I mean your Mum was obviously very highly respected.
Henry Simms: Yeah Mum was highly respected.
Stuart Traynor: Who were some of the other big figures you think have been important, ah, in the historical development of where this community has come to now?
Henry Simms: Well, we gotta look back for old Percy Mumbler, he paved the way and people reflected upon him.
Stuart Traynor: And how’s Percy related to you?
Henry Simms: He, Aunty Rosie is Mum’s cousin.
Stuart Traynor: Yep. Aunty Rosie She used to come up home to laugh? at our place.
Stuart Traynor: So she’s a cousin of your Mum.
Henry Simms: And she’d come up home with us, when she had to have treatment, she wouldn’t stay at the…
Stuart Traynor: And she’s a Mumbler, Rosie was a Mumbler.
Henry Simms: She’d stay with us. She was a Carpenter; she married a Mumbler.
Stuart Traynor: Yep. Right.
Henry Simms: She’d stay with us. She wouldn’t stay in the dormitory. She was a leader. And I used to look back on my old Uncle Jim Dixon. He, he was a man who got out and worked with farmers.
Stuart Traynor: Yeah.
Henry Simms: You now, and he paved the way for us, the younger generation. Another, another good worker was another bloke, ah, come here from Inverell, I worked with him. He went out with old shit carter, Johnny Morris, he was another good bloke, weren’t frightened of work, you know.
Stuart Traynor: And your son Matthew has carried on as a leader in cultural methods.
Henry Simms: Culture matters so I’m proud of that and I go along to his, his cere-, ceremonies and I do Welcome to Country there for him.
Stuart Traynor: So that’s Djerba Waagura.
Henry Simms: Djerba Waagura, yeah.
Stuart Traynor: And he, he established that or were you involved in that as well?
Henry Simms: I only go, I’ve got me, I’m a member of it but I only go and do the Welcome to Country.
Stuart Traynor: Yeah.
Henry Simms: Yeah, I do all that for him.
Stuart Traynor: So what sort of work is, um, Matthew doing now in that area?
Henry Simms: Well he, he arranges all the, all the events coming up. He, he got a plan ahead, he’s got to have everything down pat where they’re going to. And with Council I moved the meeting Council, big heads, and that there. So he’s, he’s on the right path now, Matt and Spencer saying go that way. And like who, who at least to carry the Simm’s name on.
Stuart Traynor: Yep.
Henry Simms: And I always said that ‘cos one son, Graham’s got no kids and Ruth, me eldest, she can’t have kids. But Matt’s got, ah, two boys at present, Sonny and Jarli?? and, ah, other son, I just can’t think, he’s got a tribal name to it . I all-, can’t think of his name.
Stuart Traynor: Right.
Henry Simms: So our name’s going to live on. Our name will never die. But I always say, and I tell everybody this, I come from the best place in Australia, La Perouse. I’m a Bidjigal man, I’ll die a Bidjigal man. And when it was 250 years, April just gone, we come into Botany Bay. Well, they were gunna have our names on a brass plaque at Kurnell, Simms and the Timberys, as the first inhabitants of Kamay Botany Bay. They built it for $12M, we got nothing. And, but my old Dad he always said, “I own this place and I’ll die here.” And I met some good people in my travels. I met some good people in ATSIC. So not only Ab-, but non-Aboriginal people and when I worked with a, in my portfolio for the State Land Council was ICAC. And I went to some strange places, you know, where people done the wrong thing. And once out at Wilcannia that you [unknown] to his family, his wife, and his daughter. And I went out to investigate them and as soon as I got out the car and he said to me, “I got work? And I said, “You won’t get much change out of ten.” He said, “Much?” I said. “No, I nearly had a heart attack” [laughs] But he got four years, and they were barred ever holding another Aboriginal position. So I’ve achieved those things, I stopped all that graft and corruption.
Stuart Traynor: So what do you take the greatest satisfaction in your life, looking back?
Henry Simms: No, I just…
Stuart Traynor: What gives you the greatest pride?
Henry Simms: My upbringing. I look back on my Mum and Dad. What, specially Dad telling what he instilled into us, you know. Because I, I didn’t pick them jobs out as a paperboy and take it, he just said, “You be there in the morning,” you know. And I, I’d grown up and when I when he left us, we battled. And I, I worked hard up the, I’d go up the golf course caddying. And one thing I look back on and I say I was lucky playing two-up. I was a lucky player. And a lot of lot of times that got us tucker money. And this day on the Mission and when they working at Warragamba clear, clearing Warragamba of all the trees they would come and find me. And on the Mission the manager turned a blind eye to it, the two-up. The women would playing cards, about five or six schools, one big two-up beyond the blue hall on the Mission. So this day I was winning eleven quid – eleven quid! – I was winning. My pockets were full with two bobs and deeners, a quid in me back pocket. And old Robbie Richie who was in the Bomaderry Arms with Dad went over, ‘cos Dad was living in the boomerang shed, went over, and told him, “Sonny,” he said. This is the words he said, “Sonny’s scooping up over there.” Then I seen him coming, and I knew he had, we had the boomerang slung beyond his arm, see. Green mangrove one which is heavier and bloody sting too. I was spin, spinning pennies. I was a tail backer and I used to beat this, this bloke that spinned the pennies, this John Longbottom, ‘cos he’s getting closer. You see I was a tail backer. He spun on his tails Your father’s coming and I’m trying to the push all the money together, money are there pushed our Robbie away from that. Picked up thirty bob under his foot that he was standing on. And once the next bid comes that’s dead money they can pick it up. So he come over and I run, I run away from him ‘cos I leave him for dead. And he said, “You got money?” I said, “Yeah.” He said, “You make, make sure you take the money home to your mother.” I said, “I am.” Then he said, “Give me a quid.” So he was happy to take [laughs] the quid. Next when I seen him, ‘cos I, I put the other money away. I said I’ll, I’ll play with this last five bob. And I won another three quid from that five bob. And I can see him shaving under the tap to get to the pub. He shaved with no mirror [laughs]. But he took the quid off me. I took that money out there to my dear old Mum. Monday morning she went into Maroubra. Not only did she buy tucker, she bought clothes at Flagstaff for my brothers and sisters.
Stuart Traynor: For herself?
Henry Simms: No.
Stuart Traynor: Always put herself second.
Henry Simms; For the kids. And that’s, that’s why I think that all my, all my sisters and me brother, they all look after me ‘cos I looked after them. I raised them, help raise them over man of the house when Dad left. ‘Cos to get tucker I used to set rabbit traps up the golf links. I’d set them when I come home from work I’m going on in the night with an old tilley lamp.
Stuart Traynor: You know, we’ve been chatting for a couple of hours now and I’ve got one last question for you.
Henry Simms: Yes Stuart.
Stuart Traynor: When are you going to publish your life story in a book, and when can I buy a copy? It’s been a privilege to talk to you Sonny, I’ve really enjoyed it.
Henry Simms: The kids have said to me, even my friends in town, “When are you going to do your book?” I said, “I don’t know.” I said. “When anyone comes to see me,” I said. “I’ll do it”.
Stuart Traynor: Well we’ve made a start today but I, I it’s been a privilege to talk to you. You’re obviously a, a strong man with strong values and a, and a positive man which I really appreciate it. It’s been great to talk to you. And I hope, um, your grandchildren and your kids will obviously get as much pleasure from hearing you chat as I have. It’s been a privilege.
Henry Simms: Thank you Stuart. And appreciate your coming in, but I think my grandkids, and I’ve got grandkids too. If they follow along the lines that they’ve been taught and the respect that I’ve, I’ve shown them and tell them about is good. Because I’ve had a good education. I was one of five boys who sat an exam to be, to enrol into the elite school then, South Sydney Junior Technical School at Maroubra. An all-boys school where we wore a grey suit, a tie, and a boater. And I was one of the five who passed that examination to gain entry into that school. And it was good. And when I went to high school, like, we had nothing. Mr. Bob Heffron, who at that time was Labor Prime Minister or…
Stuart Traynor: He was a Labor Premier wasn’t he, yeah.
Henry Simms: And he was also the Minister for Education, and he helped me tremendously. And I, I had good, good, ah, faith in that man and for his assistant and our deputy prime minister, ah, deputy principal – we used to call them headmaster then – the deputy headmaster, Mr. Lynch yeah my knew my background and he helped me every way I could, and I excelled in school in sport. But one thing I say about my dear old Dad. He always followed me at sport. If I played at Bankstown and with high school rugby league on the Wednesday, I’d look over the fence and me old father was there. When I got picked in the City side to play against Wollongong and Newcastle at Brookvale Oval and Sydney cricket ground No 2, I used to look over the fence, my father was there. When I got selected in the New South Wales rugby league team to go to Queensland I was lucky ‘cos we raised money a La Perouse for me, but I give that, I give thirteen quid to me Mum. I went, I went to Queensland with thirty bob. I seen my father coming down the railway station, No. 1 platform in Sydney and I thought I was looking at a ghost. He was drunk and he must have been laying in an old kapok mattress out the Mission and he’s like the abominable snowman. And I was that ashamed of him.
Stuart Traynor: Oh, right.
Henry Simms: And he come down and he said to me, “This is all I got my boy.” He handed me two quid. I said, “Dad,” I said, “I don’t need that.” He said, “Take it.” So I took the two quid, but unbeknown to Dad, the hooker in our, in our team was a fella called Jackie Dim from Maroubra Beach. His father owned taxis, his father owned champion greyhound dogs. Any he, Jackie Dim’s father said to him, “Tell Sonny not to worry about any money for, for Queensland, we’ve got it.” We got on the train, Jackie Dim come down, give me a little brown envelope with £22 from his father. He said, “That’s yours.” So when I got back home next week I give my father back his two quid and I give that money to Mum. So I always thought of my Mum, specially for us and me bro-, younger brothers and sisters, I made sure they weren’t gonna miss out. But a great bloke, Jackie Dim and, ah, his father made sure I, I went to Queensland with money.
Stuart Traynor: Ah, it’s been a pleasure hearing these stories. I think we’re going to have to document a bit more. This has been terrific.
Henry Simms: Mate whenever you want to come back, and we can go on again.
Stuart Traynor: It’s, it’s been a privilege. I really enjoyed the time with you, Sonny.
Henry Simms: And I’ve, I’ve enjoyed talking to ya.
Stuart Traynor: Good on ya mate.
Henry Simms: I enjoyed talking to Richard Egan here in this book.
Stuart Traynor: I think we might talk some more, and I think it would be. good to get this stuff into the local studies program at the library so that other people can share the story .
Henry Simms: Next time you come down I’ll show you in the district.
Stuart Traynor: Very good, I’d appreciate it.
Henry Simms: What I’ve done with the schools with the before they break up at Christmas, the teachers, we have a cultural day. We go all around the district. I show them how people lived in the shacks, where they, where the kids went to school and where the kids from Worrigee used to go to Terara school and that’s where the Welfare used to wait for them. Only for Jimmy Little having a good mother he’d have been gone. But the day he got chased, the bloke who chased him, he was going further away from him.
Stuart Traynor: It’s been a privilege to chat. We need to talk some more.
Henry Simms: We can talk more about that the days down the coast where the old tribal people were.
Stuart Traynor: Yeah, I think you’ve got a lot of stories to tell.
Henry Simms: I, I could go on for days, you know. And that’s what, me kids said, “Dad you want to get it on tape.”
Stuart Traynor: Well, we’ve been talking for just under two hours believe it or not.
Henry Simms: But mate, I love talking.
Stuart Traynor: I do too. It’s good to.
Henry Simms: As me kids said, Dad, “Let them know outside what, what you’ve endured.
Stuart Traynor: No, you’ve done well, you’ve made a good life for yourself.
Henry Simms: and it’s only ever like. We’re, we’re no longer together Lynette and I, but I, I’m in there all the time. I, I take her shopping, I help, I do all her work for her. I still help, I haven’t ignored her, I haven’t deserted her. That’s one thing me kids have liked.
Stuart Traynor: Well, this happened because your daughter Narelle said, “My Dad’s got lots of stories that we’d like recorded.” And I think the fact that, ah, she went to the trouble of trying to organise with the Wollongong City Library to have your story recorded shows that the respect and the love she has for you. And it’s been great.
Henry Simms: Because she’s had a hard run in the last 12 months with her stroke and…
Stuart Traynor: Yeah, well, we might talk some more.
Henry Simms: Very good thank you thank you thank you.