Interview Transcript from Illawarra Stories Wollongong City Libraries Oral History Project – Denise Lawler
Interviewer Name: Jo David
Interview Date: 26 July 2016
Jo David: Welcome to the Dapto oral history project. Today we are speaking with Denise Lawler nee Abbot of Dapto. Hello Denise and thank you for speaking with us today. I’m very happy to be here.
Denise Lawler: Thank you.
Jo David: Okay, now Denise can you tell us how old you were when you first moved to Dapto.
Denise Lawler: I came to Dapto when I was 11 in 1956 and that was a very important year in most children’s lives because it was the year of the Melbourne Olympics and we all remember it, every child was doing a project about the Melbourne Olympics.
Jo David: Oh, okay
Denise Lawler: Yeah.
Jo David: Do you know anybody who had anything to do with or went down there or…
Denise Lawler: No, no most people didn’t fly interstate in those days, a lot of the family groups that I belong to, but of course we all knew different names like from the Wollongong area there was Robin Woodhouse, I could – I don’t remember Robin, but anyone that had any chance of making the Olympics was, we were well versed in that.
Jo David: Yeah yeah okay, very good. So what do you remember about moving to Dapto? Did you move into a house?
Denise Lawler: No, no, um, it was quite a difficult time in my parents’ lives, and we sold the house to right she where I was a beach dweller, so coming to Dapto was the sticks, but Mum and Dad got a block of land reasonably cheaply on what used to be farmland and dad built a garage. And dad was a carpenter, and we lived in the garage while he built the house. And I think back what a confined area that would have been, but lots of families did that.
Jo David: How many of you were there?
Denise Lawler: Three children, Mum, Dad and the three kids. I don’t even remember rooms being separated. Perhaps there was a curtain where Mum and Dad’s bed were, and Dad built us some bunks on the wall. Mum had a copper in the back yard. Are you familiar with a copper with a stick. For doing the washing? Yeah, and I really think, um, there were cows behind us in the back paddocks and Dad was still working, so it may have taken him quite a while to build that house after work. Yeah, yeah. Like before it became liveable, and I stayed there until the day I married in that one house until I was What street was that? In Unara Street, which runs around to Station Street. And the farmer next door, he was still – it was farmland. We would ride, it was a treat, on the back of his cart to take the cans to the milk factory where the train picked them up off the railway. So that was a big treat, you know, and he had a wheat silo, and like this was right I was right next door to where we lived so it was a very ..it was farmland definitely. And of course the trains were just very close by. No electric trains in those days.
Jo David: Were they common? How often did the train run through Dapto?
Denise Lawler: Well, I think it was noisy, but you got used to it and in the end you didn’t even hear them, do you know what I mean? But they were very um, from here to, say, what’s that street through there, Marshall Street – away just a little way away.
Jo David: Okay, yeah.
Denise Lawler: And we would cross that train line without anyone to get to the creek, where Mullet Creek came up the back. That’s how free we were. And apart from worrying about the plovers – you know what a plover is – a bird that swoops and…
Jo David: Okay.
Denise Lawler: They don’t like people being – they nest in the grasses – so we’d go with a stick. So, if you were near their nest? Yes if the plovers were nesting. Across the paddock across the creek and it was a very, very happy lifestyle.
Jo David: So you said your Dad was a builder. So was most of his work local? Was he building in Dapto?
Denise Lawler: Yeah, yeah. There was actually a building recession around about the 50’s, I think, and at one stage, probably just before we came to Dapto, he had to go to Nowra to get work because they built a big new housing commission development. So we got a caravan and Mom and Dad us three kids we lived in the caravan and Dad went and built during the day and, um, Margaret and I, my twin and I went to the local Catholic school in Nowra just for a little while. So even although I’ve lived in the one house all my time – experienced another school. Because – and that was because of a recession in the building industry. And he didn’t have his own business he was very much reliant on, um…
Jo David: Like contract work, was it?
Denise Lawler: Yes, yes. And then he got a job here in Dapto with Brooks and Wright. Now they’re two names you’ve heard of Brooks Reach and all these names. They were the local, quite well-known builders in the area. And they, um – and Dad worked for them right up until he got too ill to work. He died at 61.
Jo David: So he had no retirement.
Denise Lawler: No, no, he worked right up till, yeah…
Jo David: Okay. So I was going to ask you about school, so what school did you go to when you went to?
Denise Lawler: Well it was sixth class and Margaret and I, my twin and I, we were actually at St Columbkille’s at Corrimal, and we were doing the primary final. That was the big exam you did to get into high school, and Mum was really reluctant to pull us out of that school and start us at St John’s at Dapto. So my young sister went up to St Johns. But Margaret and I caught the bus from Dapto to Corrimal. That was quite a big trip. We had each other, so we caught a bus to Wollongong and then we changed in Wollongong to finish our Primary Final and Mum was so proud when we both got honours. That was, I mean, I know that’s not a big deal now, but for Mum to make that big effort to send us out there and that meant we got into the A class at St Mary’s. And see Mum had always just sewed for a living and never had much education, so that was a big deal.
Jo David: A big thing.
Denise Lawler: Yeah, for sure. And for us too.
Jo David: Yeah absolutely.
Denise Lawler: So then we finished sixth class at St Columbkille’s, and we caught the train from Dapto railway station to St Mary’s, which is right down on the beach. And we walked without – no backpacks, or. we didn’t even have a – we carried a suitcase with all our books. You think from Wollongong railway station to the beach.
Jo David: Yeah, yeah, that’s a long way with all those books
Denise Lawler: Thought nothing of it. We had a great group of friends on the train. It was just a social…
Jo David: So I was going to ask you that. So you lived in Dapto, but you obviously didn’t go to school, to a local Dapto school. So how did you meet local kids?
Denise Lawler: Yeah, mainly Dapto was very much divided into the Catholics and non-Catholics in that all our friends were Catholics. I knew other kids, of course, and I still see women today that I recognise as a Dapto girl. But we weren’t friends. We never made those connections Because of school. Through school. But I um, I never liked St Mary’s. I always felt it was kind of um – I – this is my opinion – they favoured the Wollongong – the, you know, the diocese kids from in there. The Bulli kids and the Dapto kids were always…
Jo David: Just that little bit…
Denise Lawler: Lower down. a social scale – we thought – but we weren’t really. But it’s a shame that as you’re older you look back on things and you think these thoughts. I don’t think I thought them at the time.
Jo David: Oh Okay. It’s just in retrospect.
Denise Lawler: Yes.
Jo David: That’s interesting. Okay. So school aside, what did you get up to in your weekends and holidays?
Denise Lawler: Very few holidays. I think Mum and Dad battled but in a good way. A good sixties battling way. Mum never worked, she stayed at home. She was a wonderful sewer, so a lot of people approached her to sew for them and she often did because she had this reputation as being a beautiful seamstress. So, um, we actually, um, had a car. Always had a car. And we just went for a picnic, something as simple as that, or over to see one of the dams, or do you know things that would have been an outing. But we were pretty content at home.
Jo David: Yeah, Okay, not so much those annual holidays.
Denise Lawler: Yeah, we went to Burrill Lake once in a tent, and that was, that was exciting. And then we went back again in years later and hired a cabin and Margaret and I were allowed to take a friend. [laughter]. That was – I mean my kids have sleepovers – my grandkids and that – but it was simple.
Jo David: Yes, yes, definitely.
Denise Lawler: You probably hear that story all the time.
Jo David: Yeah, but oh well.
Denise Lawler: I mean – I feel we were content.
Jo David: Yes. You don’t remember feeling…?
Denise Lawler: I didn’t aspire to think I’m missing out. No. I think there was very little of that back then wasn’t there?
Jo David: Okay, so after school and weekends? What did you do?
Denise Lawler: We didn’t actually do paid sport. Okay, I remember wanting to do dancing lessons badly because some of the other girls were. There’s a lady, I still see her in Dapto now – she’s about 80 – but she was the dance teacher. Oh really. A lot of people went to dancing. But Mum of course didn’t take us by car, we found our own way there. We didn’t go for very long, so perhaps it was too much effort, but apart from, um, the group from the church, boys and girls – it wasn’t just girls, we had lots of boyfriends as well that when my mucked around with and then as we got a little bit older, we formed – we had a youth club through the church and that became the whole social hub of my life. That was called the CYO, the Catholic Youth Organisation. And that was a hub of our existence. And some of the boys were lucky enough to have cars, so we’d pile into – no seat belts, nothing. I met my husband John there.
Jo David: Okay.
Denise Lawler: He came from Oak Flats. He was an only child, so he’d inherited the family car which was passed down. We remember we took eleven kids ten pin bowling to Warrawong. We laugh about it now because that couldn’t have been right. We probably had them in the boot. And seriously life was like that, and we didn’t drink. So that was actually, I think, a good thing, that we weren’t allowed in clubs until we were twenty-one. So our social years were very much about making our own outings. And like we might go to Minnamurra Falls or we’re not talking a long way away. An excursion to Canberra or something like that would have been a very big deal. So I feel now when I think back it was limited, but I never thought of it that way.
Jo David: No, of course not, because well you did have a lot of freedom didn’t you, so even if it was just local.
Denise Lawler: Yeah, yeah. So, um, movies.
Jo David: Did you ever see movies.
Denise Lawler: I love movies, and I love movies to this day.
Jo David: And there was a local movie theatre in Dapto in those days wasn’t there?
Denise Lawler: I don’t know whether I can remember what it was called, something like the Civic or the Regent. They all had similar names in those days. And it would have been a very simple, probably wooden structure, perhaps a concrete front. You know you have a vision of a …
Jo David: Yeah, yeah.
Denise Lawler: But, um, and you went to see a serial, you know, which each week ended on a cliffhanger, and so the next week you went back. In those days they used to do a – before the main movie – a serial, like Cowboys and Indians.
Jo David: Yeah, OK. So you went each week?
Denise Lawler: If I could if I could. But I don’t remember going all the time. My twin sister didn’t like it as much, so I mainly went on my own, but it wasn’t a lot of money for Mum and Dad to find, to give us two shillings, perhaps one and six, to get in, and sixpence to spend.
Jo David: Yeah. And was it quite popular in Dapto, was it usually a full house?
Denise Lawler: Yes it was popular. It was very popular, but I only would have gone on a Saturday afternoon. I never would have gone in the evening, because Mum and Dad… OK but when a really big movie came and I’m talking – I’ll use “Ben Hur” as an example or something like that, we might have gone as a family. We may have even ventured to Wollongong. There were no eateries much. Do you know – I think there was a cafe in Crown Street in Wollongong. Um, they opened a Chinese restaurant in Keira Street. But there, like – now you have umpteen takeaways and all that. Fish and chips on Friday night – a lot of families did that. They were a treat – nothing to do with being Catholic even.
Jo David: No, okay.
Denise Lawler: Dad finished work Friday got paid. Yeah oh payday, yeah. And we had fish and chips on Friday night.
Jo David: From Dapto, or in town?
Denise Lawler: Yeah.
Jo David: OK, so where were the fish and chips from? Was there a fish and chip shop?
Denise Lawler: Yes, there was a fish and chip shop, but honestly I can’t recall where it was.
Jo David: OK, yeah, yeah.
Denise Lawler: We had a butcher round the corner. I know there was two butchers in those days, and Mum – she certainly wasn’t lazy – she never stopped, but she’d often wait till we come home from school. Because she didn’t plan the meal a long way in advance, and we’d be – we’d walk to the butcher’s shop. Mr Dunn, I think he’s still alive, and I think he still lives in Dapto. Mr Dunn, a Scotsman, he knew all the local kids.
Jo David: OK.
Denise Lawler: And you would have a note, or you’d be very specific instructions. Like now your Mum goes to the supermarket and checks the meat out and, but we would be told, so…
Jo David: Exactly what to get.
Denise Lawler: Like going to Fairlies with – for Mum’s sewing needs, we very much knew to get the cotton and to hold it on the fabric and always went one shade lighter rather than one shade – you learned these things. Because Mum didn’t walk from our place, like – especially after we got home from school. I suppose we had the time.
Jo David: Little errand runners, were you?
Denise Lawler: Yes
Jo David: OK. So tell us about shopping at Fairlies.
Denise Lawler: Oh it was the hub of Dapto really, and everyone knew all the people behind the counters. I can still picture the girls that worked there…
Jo David: All locals?
Denise Lawler: Yes – to this day. Yes, yes those girls and, um, really helpful. And the old – everything was displayed, you know, on old counter tops and that. I suppose mainly I would have been sent for haberdashery. For Mum if she needed a zipper or cotton and things like that. And, ah, and I often told my kids we always put the money in a thing, and it’d go up in the chute and shoot through to the office, because people didn’t have tills. And the office lady – I remember what she looked like, she was very plain. I think she’s died – a little spinsterish lady and she would have controlled all the money.
Jo David: OK
Denise Lawler: Yeah to shoot up there.
Jo David: And the change came back.
Denise Lawler: Yeah.
Jo David: OK.
Denise Lawler: And there was a -the section I remember really well was the delicatessen section which was in a big wire cage that went right to roof, you know what I mean? So that would have been to do with flies and things like that I suppose, you know. So, um, I only have quite murky memories of that, but I do remember it quite well. And then the hardware was on that side, and, um – everything you needed was at Fairlies.
Jo David: So did they have a particular area that was interesting, interesting to children, like lollies and things like that? Did they have that?
Denise Lawler: We never got lollies, that I remember. But Mr Crooks had a shop that sold lollies.
Jo David: Did he? Where was he?
Denise Lawler: He was in Bong Bong Road, and he also had a little gift store beside that. You know if you needed something quickly for a wedding, or things like that, you didn’t have to leave Dapto – a small selection of gifts and Steely, who was the butcher, who lived around the corner, he is – he married one of Mr Crooks’ daughters, so he went to work there. Do you know, everyone kind of knew everyone, you know, or you knew a connection.
Jo David: A connection yeah, yeah, [laughter] that’s great.
Denise Lawler: It is, and it’s actually good for me because it brings back lots of old memories.
Jo David: Yeah, yeah. Did you ever have – um, a few people have talked about swimming holes and going swimming.
Denise Lawler: Yes, yes, I, um I didn’t swim. We used to go down to Mullet Creek on the other side of the railway line if you followed, um, Moombara right down to the end. We were allowed to do this in the school holidays. We would go down there and even make dodgy canoes out of old pieces of iron or something and I think it was probably – the Creek wasn’t deep, but it was probably quite treacherous if you got into trouble. But as long as we were home for lunch – that was strictly in the school holidays you know, when we had lots of time. Yes, all day. And we’d find some mates and go down there, so that’s almost over where I would go the back road now to go to Horsley from my place now the Creek came up through there.
Jo David: Yeah, okay. But that was all good fun.
Denise Lawler: Yeah. But there were swimming holes, but the Catholic girls didn’t go.
Jo David: No?
Denise Lawler: I heard stories that certain people skinny dipping, but they were only ever rumours.
Jo David: Okay, nobody actually ever witnessed it. Okay.
Denise Lawler: No. There were always rumours weren’t there? And, of course, the Showground was a big deal when I was a child. The Showground took up…
Jo David: Did you go to the Dapto Show?
Denise Lawler: Yes, yes but I haven’t a real a lot of memories of it, but the Showground area, there was always something going on down there and yeah… And it was a big deal in those days, like horses and produce and – because they were all these Avondale farming families, and Marshall Mount. And people have told you about the Marshall Mount dance I suppose.
Jo David: Not yet. Did you go?
Denise Lawler: Yes.
Jo David: Tell us about it.
Denise Lawler: But you had to have a car to get out there. The hall is still there at Marshall Mount and to get to the Marshall Mount dance – it was old time dancing – but everyone experienced Marshall Mount. The old wooden floor and the band there and you might go with a group from the youth club and hope someone you liked would ask you to dance that didn’t always happen. I remember my husband putting his father’s car in a trench somewhere out there one night, and that was all very hushed up till he got the car out of the trench and got it home. But they were just escapades.
Jo David: Yeah. Yeah.
Denise Lawler: But when my sister and I got big enough, say seventeen, we went to Wollongong, to the Bernadiro. That was like the upmarket dance place in town.
Jo David: OK. How did you get there?
Denise Lawler: Catch the bus. And meet some boys, and they would offer us a lift home. And Margaret would say, “I can’t go if you don’t take Denise,” and Denise would say, “I can’t go if you don’t take Margaret”. But that was serious dancing, like – and I loved to dance. But then not long after that the surfie movement started and the Pioneer Hall, which is still in Wollongong, opposite where the Bernadino used to be. And then it started stomp type dancing, and it really moved from – that was very old fashioned after that. But we loved that. We got all dolled up, like a sore toe to go to Wollongong.
Jo David: Did a lot of young people do that sort of stuff from Dapto, get the bus, so the bus was pretty full?
Denise Lawler: You would have nine people and you would’ve make sure you didn’t miss the last bus home which, wouldn’t have been that late. And Margaret and I, we would run from the bus stop all the way home which was just down the street. And the night Mum let us go to see “Psycho” – do you remember the movie, “Psycho”? Oh my God, we never ran so fast! But there was no one around to scare us. [Laughter] And my young sister was always a little upset that she wasn’t allowed as much freedom as Margaret and I, because we had each other. But she did come to the youth club, probably at fifteen whereas we probably – because we were there to look after her then. And we had a local priest, Father Ward, who was just a wonderful priest at St John’s and he – he was like the parents all knew we had a good guidance. And they actually brought a young married couple – and the Campbells were a big family in Dapto in those days. So one of the Campbell girls married a farmer, and they were brought along to the youth club to kind of be our mentors, till we got really started and the group that we were with, my sister was the secretary and then someone along as the president. We actually had – and then there were youth clubs all over, so we had – Wollongong had one, Campbelltown had one. There’s one at Bowral. So my sister met her husband, David, in Bowral and she went there to live, and they ran the table tennis comp. Someone else ran the cross country. We had football, table tennis, tennis. So we’d all travel to these different.
Jo David: So these CYO they were very important?
Denise Lawler: It was very important. And John and I met there, and he became the president, and we stayed there till the day we married, which is most unusual. Sounds a bit corny now, but it was important.
Jo David: No, no, it sounds like it was very important, especially at that time.
Denise Lawler: And those were the people we invited to our wedding. You know, from the youth club… From the youth club, that were our friends, and, um…
Jo David: Were there many marriages from the youth club.
Denise Lawler: Yes, yes, my young sister, Julie, met Grant, her husband, there. Actually the three of us all met our partners.
Jo David: So you all did through CYO, so it was important wasn’t it?
Denise Lawler: It was. And then they changed it to YCW. The church, in it’s wisdom, decided it was too social. They changed it to Young Christian Workers, but no one was ever interested in that aspect. No, seriously, it was all about meeting like people and having, having a social time. A social time, yeah. So it gradually died out.